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I’ve missed Robbie Williams. Or, rather, celebrity interviews have missed Robbie Williams. Like others who walked like sweary pop titans in the Nineties and early noughties, Williams has a way of conducting interviews that leads the journalists who conduct them to wonder, “Why can’t all pop stars be like this?” Williams is unfathomably candid about anything – and I mean everything – wickedly mischievous and gleefully self-aware to the point that even while discussing subjects he knows will be picked up in the media, he smiles and ensures we go over the lines to be sure of maximum outrage and impact. He’s also, unsurprisingly, very funny, a man who wields anecdotes and bolshy opinions all too naturally, like weapons. Stars aren’t usually like this and certainly not your modern pop phenomenon. All too often, stars are keener to deflect or deviate, too careful, too cautious.
What I also realised while on my way to meet Rob – everyone calls him Rob – is that he’s been through, well, pretty much every up and down that one really, really successful person can have in a lifetime. To say his life has been a series of ups and downs would be like calling Chernobyl a filing error. The fame, the addictions, the feuding, the No1s, Rudebox, the seriously erratic behaviour, the agoraphobia, the years in the wilderness, the UFOs, the shagging, the being wanked off by a hotel cleaner in a castle, the decampment to Los Angeles, the biographies (of which Williams’ Feel, published in 2005, ghosted by British journalist Chris Heath is still perhaps the greatest biography of a modern performer ever written; I include Elton John’s Me and Keith Richard’s Life in this), the body dysmorphia, the depression, the ecstasy, the weed, the women, the... Oh, let’s just get on with it shall we? After all, who am I to stand in the way of you and Mr Entertainment himself? As he says himself as we sit down to begin, “Anyway, me now.” Pop is dead. Long live Robbie Williams.
How’s the no smoking going?
Great. Very good. From 1 January till now.
Did you ever vape?
It just looks, well, it looks like you’re going to be very fucked, very soon. No. On 1 January, stop smoking. I had one cigarette with Lily Allen. It was at the studio with Guy Chambers. She's working with Guy Chambers. And it had to be Lily, didn't it? She corrupted me for that one cigarette, but I didn't buckle and I didn't go back.
Well, you’re looking trim.
Yeah. I'm really, really good. I've been eating fish. I've been really enjoying it, eating fish.
Were you eating fish before and not enjoying it?
No, it's just been mainly me and then the fish. You know? The fish is sort of an afterthought. But then you watch all of these documentaries on Netflix about meat being full of steroids and really bad for you and you realise that maybe red meat ain't that great for you. Anyway, I thought I'd give just eating fish a bash.
So you're a pescatarian?
I guess so, yeah. If it swims it thins. It really is a transition, getting used to not eating red meat any more. But I can do it: I mean, I haven't had a drink for 19 years and I find that once you get into the slipstream with these things, with breaking a habit, it's who you are and what you do. So who I am and what I do, right now, is eat fish. And it's working.
A preoccupation with what you ingest - in whatever form - has been a theme throughout your life, wouldn’t you say?
Well, for me, it's literally like wrestling a polar bear. You know, sort of like I want to be out of control with everything at all times. Whether that be food, drink, drugs, sex, computer games, being online, music, golf, whatever the fuck it is I want to be doing too much of anything – or do too much of nothing – always. Unfortunately, I'm predisposed to that drama. So, yeah, food is just one of the things that I'm trying to be more balanced with at the moment. One fire goes out; another fire comes up. If it isn't food, it's kids, being away too much or being there too much. You're always trying to filter your behaviour, to moderate. It’s fucking exhausting.
But being sober 19 years, you must be better at tweaking those internal dials? Managing those demons?
It doesn't even really come in to play. You know, it's been so long [with booze], but never say never. I've tripped up in between those times, those 19 years, but it was never with drink and it didn't last long. I think at 45 I might just be a bit better at not needing or wanting. I do find it difficult to not smoke weed. Although even that's becoming an easier thing if it's around me. Weed is a bit like a chocolate bar. If there’s a Kit Kat in the room, I'm going to eat the damn Kit Kat. If a Toblerone is in the room, I am going to eat the Toblerone. If there's a joint in the room? Then it's going to be difficult for me to not smoke it, but that's the only thing really...
It must be very hard not to run into weed in LA? The stuff fugs up every bar, restaurant and private party.
In LA, weed is now like having a coffee. It's everywhere. Everywhere smells of weed. And it’s like smack out there. It’s acid-level potency. You have a puff and then you’re wrestling demons for the rest of the evening until you wake up. It’s not a nice place to be. So that can be testing. But, you know, that craving lasts for like five seconds. But for those five seconds I feel like I'm wrestling a bear.
Happier times now: how much time do you spend in Britain?
I pay taxes here. Road needs to be laid, hospitals need to be staffed, so it’s not annoying... I mean, I don't want to!
What’s your view of Britain and the mess we’re in, your native country, now you’re looking in rather than looking out?
I live in that bubble people talk about. I'm from the place that voted to leave, but I live in a different environment now. So I can understand the people that wanted to leave’s point of view, but that's not where I'm at, personally. Yeah, it's not. That being said it's not a hill I'm interested on dying on at the moment. I'm just watching it and going, “Right, sort yourself out and then we'll see what happens.”
Did you vote in the referendum?
I have never, ever voted.
Will you in the future?
Maybe. Nothing that I would put into words right now.
You must have an opinion on what Boris Johnson is doing to the country, how he’s operating?
I am so out of the loop. When I say I don't vote, I don't vote because I don't believe in the system or the people in that system. And when you vote it encourages "them" and the government just get in anyway. People reading this will leave comments saying, “Well, if he doesn't vote, then he has no right to have an opinion...” All right. Jog on. That's where I'm at. And what do I think of Boris? I think the world is never not an insane place to be. Ever. We go, “Oh, what is the world coming to?” But look back to George Bush and we were saying the same thing.
You trust Boris?
Boris would be excellent entertainment if he was the assistant to my accountant. You'd walk away from a meeting going, "Well, he's a laugh! But I'm not sure I want to leave my investments in his hands." But look. It is what it is. This is the state of play. I have more of an opinion on Manchester United or [Marcus] Rashford not putting the ball in the back of the net right now.
So being a father hasn’t meant you’ve developed more of an interest in current affairs?
Greta [Thunberg] did stir the hornets' nest, didn't she? I think there should be a law that protects passing judgement on somebody who is 16. Yeah. No matter what they do. You know, obviously, if it's criminal, then let the criminal system deal with that, but no matter what you think of Greta or her speech, her tone of her facial expressions, her anger, her passion, she should be allowed to do that without reproach. And comments from unempathetic c***s are not going to help the young girl’s psyche, whichever way you lean on the climate. That did annoy me this week. Yeah. She's 16. I'm not necessarily in her corner from her standpoint, but I think that she should be allowed to get on with whatever the fuck she wants to get on with. Let her be.
Anyway, Rob, you have a Christmas album out...
Yes, I have an album coming out. Do you love Christmas, Jonathan?
I do love Christmas, yes. Do you?
I love Christmas and then I despise Christmas.
I was going to ask you what Christmas was about when you were a boy.
It was very exciting because BMXes were huge when I was a boy and my BMX would take care of me for the rest of the year. I was a latchkey kid. I had the key on a piece of lace around my neck so I didn't lose it. And I'd be miles away from the house every day, every day, all day, even Christmas, until it went dark, and then eventually we didn’t even come home after it went dark and you’re doing whatever you’re doing, drinking and so on. But when I stopped drinking, Christmas just became this raucous, adrenalin-filled orgy of festivities that I was still a part of, even though I haven't had a drink for 19 years. And when I got sober I had to deal with the depression that the booze was masking. So then I hated Christmas.
Because it was a time when everyone was off their faces but you weren’t?
Everybody was off their faces and I didn’t only hate Christmas but I hated me and I hated music and I hated everything to do with everything. I was very, very cynical because that was the mirror I was looking through. You know, if you feel shit, everything is shit. Yeah, then Ayda [Williams’ wife] happened and she is so big on Christmas. Our first Christmas together, she turned the house into Blackpool illuminations. And I was down for it, but every morning I woke up and there were so many lights all I could think about was the electricity meter. These nodding fucking reindeers and snowmen that move and the lights upon lights upon lights... But she wants to create memories and her enthusiasm for Christmas is infectious.
Did you ever spend Christmas with Take That?
We did Christmas Day and we went to visit a children's hospital and I'd been in the pub all night and I negged a gram of speed and just carried on. So I come from the pub in Tunstall and now it's Christmas morning and I'm with Andy Peters. And I'm in a children's hospital off my head on speed. And then the dramatic come down, like a huge, huge comedown, later on that day. So that was the Christmas in Take That I remember.
Did you always have big comedowns?
Absolutely. Epic. I even get it with chocolate now. I mean it's not as epic, but it's weird how much the road narrows as you get older, when you have a bit of a chocolate binge and wake up the next day and I'm like, "Ow." How sad that that's the thing that's now doing it to me. Hence I tried to stop doing it and, yeah, I have managed.
But you’ve had your fair share of Christmas No1s?
We had a Christmas No1 with Nicole Kidman and I had a Christmas No2, "Babe", with Take That, beaten by Mr Blobby... which was great. But my albums have been No1 at Christmas quite a few times. The last one was Swings Both Ways and I beat One Direction by literally 50 copies, something ridiculous. I love the boys, nothing against them in any shape or form, but for an ageing pop star, it felt fucking triumphant. Christmas Day with your album being Christmas No1.
How do you measure success now?
I'm still trying to figure it out. You know, here's the thing. You get older. Pop is a young man's game or a young woman's game or whatever you gender yourself... And it's not ageist that they don't play your records anymore. It's not ageist that a 45-year-old can't play in the Premier League. It's just fucking how it is. Physically, mentally, everything-ly... Music is about young people. So Radio 1 stopped playing me and that had been huge oxygen for me. Capital Radio stopped and that had a huge impact on how the wheels went round.
When did that happen?
When I released Take The Crown and "Candy" came out. It was still No1, which was great. Albums, I mean. I don't want to tempt fate but this album will probably go to No1... But singles? Look, my audience don't stream. And young people don't want to stream a middle-aged pop star like me. So it's incredibly difficult to get into the top 40, which leads you to evolve. You have to evolve and do something else, which is what I'm going to do. I've got lots of different plans and they don't necessarily involve music. All I will say is I once presented Going Live for two weeks. I will leave that there.
But why bother? Why evolve? You could pack it all up tomorrow and just quit.
Yeah, I could quit tomorrow. But, you know, I'm just starting to enjoy this fucking thing. You know, when I was hideously depressed and couldn't imagine getting on stage in front of a stadium full of people and thinking it was my job that was making me feel this way, I just knew that one day will come when I can just enjoy it. And it’s come! It came about three years ago, where I'm just like, "I fucking love my job." It was all about purpose. I retired – didn’t tell anyone for three years, because I knew I was full of shit – and in those three years I had no purpose and everything just started to fall apart. My mind, my body, my groin, my knee, my back, fucking everything. And then I came back and it wasn't like riding a bike, it was super fucking weird, and I had to relearn the mechanism, how to do the thing that I do. And now I'm a 45-year-old man with three kids that has an amazing job. And that is purpose and I like it.
Those three years, your wilderness years, were very difficult, sitting on a sofa not being able to leave the house.
Yeah, agoraphobia. I mean I could have left [the house], but I just choose not to. I wanted to turn it off and you can't be a little bit pregnant. You know, fame or infamy doesn't go away, or when you’ve had a certain kind anyway. I don't know where the limit for that is but... anyway. And there were loads of different things. I was being followed for 24 hours a day. I was “box office”, as one journalist described it. Oh, yeah. I was box office was I? Yeah, thank you, you c***. And I was competitive. So I sat down and I didn’t sit up. And waited for them all to go. Three years later I went outside the house and they’d all gone. “Fellas? Fellas?”
How did that feel?
I don't really lament the passing of that intense light. It'd be nice to have that kind of success, but without that invasion.
Do you think it's a different type of life for a pop star nowadays compared to when you were at the peak of your pop powers?
Pop rules the world now.
But pop stars 10, 20 years ago weren’t given much credit or considered particularly cool or authentic.
Back in the day, the actual disdain I experienced from my peers was sometimes crippling. You know, it's just the self-esteem took a battering. The way I viewed myself and what I did was kind of worthless. And it was sad. But then I was looking at a bunch of old TFI Fridays one day on YouTube and I was thinking, “Fuck me, they’re shit. Oh, my god. Oh, they're so fucking mediocre.” And these are all the people that were giving me disdain. Anyway, I wrote a blog slagging them all off. It’s out there on the internet somewhere. I was also taking some sort of medicine and the side effects made me incredibly angry. So I wrote this fucking thing. “I remember you looking down your nose at me. Have this you c***s! Wallop!” I wrote a list of people I thought were shit. But, you know, I wish I hadn’t done that.
Did you feel a pressure to be cool, even while hanging out with the likes of Liam Gallagher at Glastonbury in 1995?
I was ostracised by the tribe. That's what it felt like back then with some people.
Did you care that they didn't seem to want you in their cool, indie rock'n'roll gang?
Listen, I'm from Stoke. And if somebody looks at you disdainfully in the pub, you're either fighting or you're running away from that lunatic. It's one of the two and 98 per cent of these people I didn't need to run away from. I wanted to fight them. But, you know, it's a bit...
You get older and wiser?
Oh, no. They remain on "The List" today. I'm an enemy for life. I'm enemy for life! I'm a lifer. Yeah, that thing you did in the Groucho in 95? I’ll get you back for that. OK? It's 2019, but eventually I'll get you back.
Is Liam Gallagher on The List?
Is Liam on The List? Yeah, Liam's on The List. Yeah. And it's a long fucking list, you know? When you go to a certain place for recovering alcoholics you have to write down a list of resentments. Mine was like fucking War And Peace...
Sorry, I'm not laughing out of disrespect...
No, its fine. I mean, it is funny. It is. It is funny... Funny and sad. But that's comedy isn't it? Tragedy plus time. Do you know who I was watching on the internet the other day? Gavin McInnes. And he was like, "Oh, if you cross me you've got an enemy for life." And I was like, "He's so at home with that! That's me." Yes, you've got a fucking enemy for life. And somebody is going to get a head butt out of the fucking blue and not have a fucking clue why. And that's that.
So maybe that long-touted fight with Liam Gallagher that began at The Brits in 2000 might actually happen eventually?
Oh, yes please. I'd love it. But I'd want it to be a professional fight.
Still "Liam 100 grand your money, 100 grand of my money..." as you asked for at The Brits?
No, no, because I've just seen how much KSI and Logan Paul made from their fight and I think we could trounce that. But, yeah, I think last time in the noughties Liam wanted to go down to an abandoned railway track or something. I don't want to do that. It's got to be fucking whistles and bells if it happens.. You see the likes of Nigel Benn coming back – and they're professional boxers; I do know that – and George Foreman and all of these people and they're oldies and professional boxers. But, yeah, Liam and I would be a wonderful thing.
So who would win?
Well, I'm in good nick. I've been boxing and sparring. So let's just say I'd be more than happy to get in the ring with him. More than happy. Let’s be having you. And obviously I'd win. Not on points, no. He'd go down in the third round I reckon. And we’d have to get a proper licence as we don’t want to be wearing any head protection. Knock out. Third round. Nighty night. Yep.
You have always been so candid and so open about your state of being and your state of mind. The idea of talking about one's mental health, for a man, is quite modern, although in some ways you've always led by example in this way – your vulnerability, your ups and downs being a pretty powerful thing.
[Laughs.] I'm a poster boy for broken people. No. I think to understand everybody is to forgive everybody. And I thought always that if I try to explain why I'm like this then maybe somebody will understand. And also my mum was somebody who indoctrinated me to speak my mind about what was happening at any given time; she thought that was good for you. She was way ahead of the game. So there hasn't been a period in my life when I haven't talked about it.
It seems to me a healthy way of living.
I don't know any other way of living. Don't ask me how I am, because I will tell you! As it happens, you know, everything ends well, in the end of this story thus far, but fucking hell what a ferocious battle. Just dealing with your own head. I was in a prison.
Have you ever felt that you can become almost an Elton John figure, pass on some of the learnings to the Lewis Capaldis of the world or Harry Styleses about the lessons learnt about the intensities of fame, the ups and downs?
In the last 18 months, I'm in a better position than I've ever been to do that. When Zayn [Malik] was going through it, his people reached out to me to give him a call to help him. And I was thinking, "Help? But I'm fucked too." I didn't want to fucking phone the kid and tell him there's no hope. You don't want me on that phone call! "Hey, I know you're only 24 right now, but it can only get worse. It is going to get fucking worse. I'd take that phone call now. Yeah, but at that particular time, you don't want me on that phone call.
Speaking of hardships, I heard your dog died recently. I'm sorry.
We had ten dogs. Ten dogs is too many dogs. It's a lot of dog. Anyway, we had ten and we also had cream curtains and every curtain in the house, about a foot up from the floor was fucking yellow. We had a wolf at one point. Yeah a real wolf. He was more wolf than Malamute husky, but he was a mix, Sid. But the thing is, although I loved Sid, he was fucking huge, what a boss but – and I never told anybody ever – I was scared of Sid. Anyway, so we've had a few pass away just recently and then the Jack Russell, whose job it is as a Jack Russell to go out and have adventures. And she did, all the time, and she escaped, yet again, like they do. She got bitten by a rattlesnake and died. And – I mean, obviously I will override this; like, don't be silly – but it makes you wonder if it's worth having dogs because of the pain that you go through when they leave. Yeah, I just remember Rudy, my German shepherd, taking himself off under a tree to go and die.
How is your spirituality?
Wow. With my list full of resentments it can't be that good. Let's be serious. It can't be that good if there's a God-shaped hole or another that I could throw myself into, but I'm choosing to keep them to myself. Yeah. So my spirituality is not that great.
Have you explored that side of yourself?
Yeah loads. I used to pray every morning and pray every evening. I've done the Buddhist thing. I've chanted. I've met Yogi...
Anything rock your world?
Yeah, materialism. [Laughs.] A new Gucci coat! Fucking seriously. I used to hate the term ''fashion". I just used to think it stood for all the stuck-up, prissy, elitist nobheads. That's who I am now. I found my people and I'm home. I'm worshipping at the temple of materialism and I'm giving it a fucking good go. You know the amount of time that I spent hiding the profits? Wearing really crappy shoes? I wasn't hiding the profits on purpose, but I thought everything was just a vulgar display of wealth.
How so?
Well, listen, I remember I bought a Ferrari one month. And I felt that bad about it that I bought a number plate that said "Sorry". And I sold the Ferrari before I arrived at the house because what do I think I am? When I grew up, the people I grew up with would throw rocks at fancy cars. Them and their Rolls-Royces? What a fucking bunch of bellends. Then... I wanted one. And I changed my mind. Right? I was, like, 29 and I got in one and I was like, "Oh, it's like being in a living room." Then I wanted one and I coveted it for a decade and a bit. Nearly 15 years mulling it over, thinking it through. For 12 fucking years. Then on my 40th birthday, I thought, "Fuck it." I'm going to put my foot down on this whole wealth thing and see what it fucking feels like.
How did it feel?
Well, Ayda had spent 15 grand on my birthday and I was saying, "Well, I can't buy the fucking Rolls-Royce now! You've spent that on my birthday." Right? On the party and presents and stuff. So on my birthday I spent it arguing with my missus about how it was now impossible to buy a Rolls-Royce. So anyway that year I went down to the Beverly Hills Rolls-Royce centre, looked at it, mulled it over and, again, walked away. No, not doing it. Another year goes by, again I go down and this time I buy a white Rolls-Royce Ghost. So I'm driving off in my Rolls-Royce. I go back home, I look on the internet, I go on the Daily Mail and what do I see, but Kylie Jenner, who is 19 at the time, had just bought the exact same fucking car that I just bought – and had zero existential crisis about it! Zero! It was just the fucking car she wanted on that fucking day. No guilt!
Do you still have the Rolls?
I bought a Phantom. At the time, I thought the Rolls-Royce as an entertainer's status symbol had gone by; it had passed. But now I'm fully Terry Wogan in that thing. And they are very nice cars, although, I've seen these Mercedes Vianos. It's a van. And you can get them customised, right? Because I'm driving down from the countryside in a Rolls or whatever and it makes me feel like a target. I was going to get a taxi. And then my wife was like, "Why don't you get one of those Vianos?" So arriving today is a Viano, which from the outside looks like it carries spanners, but on the inside it looks like it carries Gaddafi.
When did you realise you'd earned a life-altering amount of money?
When I was rich beyond my wildest dreams? It was a weird moment, I was on Tunstall High Street, you know, because in Take That we'd earned only £170 for the first two years – not per week – but for the first two years. Then we got half a million record advance so we had wages that went up to £150 each week. Then we did a tour and blah blah... And I'm going out with my mates on the piss on a Friday night. We got a Barclays on Tunstall high street. I go to the bank machine on the high street and punch in my pin number on the screen and I go, "Lads, lads, look at that." And it said £500,000 pounds in my bank account. But it's a weird moment. Because now you're divorced from the tribe. And in that moment, I could feel the tectonic plates shifted and I moved to a different continent. And it was a weird moment. It was triumphant, yet uncomfortable at the same time.
Do you still consider yourself a sex symbol?
I never have. I always thought that being voted the most attractive man on the planet is so fucking silly. How fucking ridiculous and stupid is that, right? And then you don't make the top 40 and you're like, "What? Where am I?" All of a sudden, not silly. Then it becomes important. What happened to me? I'm still here! So I don't like seeing myself in the mirror. I don't like watching videos of myself, I don't recognise the person I am seeing when I look there... The passing of time.
Was sex addiction a real problem?
I mean, I was just throwing that in there as another example of addiction. And also as being a pop star. Is having lots of sex a problem? Or is that just what you're supposed to do as a pop star? I do know this: since I have had a relationship with my wife I have been monogamous. I don't put my head in the lion's mouth. I don't flirt. And I don't go anywhere that would cause a problem for me and my wife. And it's been quite easy. So is sex addiction a problem? It didn't get in the way of my work. It didn't get in the way of my personal relations.
Did it come hand in hand with the drink and the drugs?
It comes hand in hand with... As a pop star, that's just what the fuck you do. You become this thing and you get these things and one of them is loads of sex. As sure as eggs is eggs, that's just what happens. But in Stoke-On-Trent, and lots of other places in the country, with the booze and the drugs, when the school gates close the pubs open. It's not normal, but that's just what happens. That being said, sex addiction is not a problem for me right now.
Did you worry that you'd slept with enough people?
You mean, did I behave like a proper rock star? Did I go platinum? I'm definitely platinum, but I'm not diamond. I never tried to add the number up, no. I couldn't. There was a time quite recently when I was being interview by this woman and I realised half way through that I'd slept with her, although I'd been acting like we'd only just met as I hadn't remembered. It was on camera and my wife was with me. And there was another time when we were at Jag Gym, in LA, with the kids and there's a ball pit and a girl walked in and I just had to jump in the ball pit and hide. "Ayda! Ayda! I think I have slept with her, but I can't remember who she is!"
"The Christmas Present" is out on 22 November.
